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    [Feedback Needed] Balance Suggestions


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     Today I want to point out my experienced opinion about Azure Knight as a character, I am not talking about the talent and skills of the player. As you all can see clearly only few play AK in rising not because its hard to play No, it's just because its weak compared to other classes and that’s because of 4 Main things: 

    1- LOW DMG: To deal good DMG with AK you need to be full STR (which sucks against other classes easy kill) or switch to LACH all the time while it’s very risky against most of the classes since AK does not have the stun that will allow to switch and carry on with a skill or 2 without being caught. In the other hand if you go heal and str build you won't really have the dmg needed to finish an opponent like Segu for example. With that being said I want to also point that Infinity Evil is the main skill for the 2H weapon and the strongest as you all know, but most of the times it’s a waste since you can run from it easily because of the time AK takes in the air it would be more convenient if there is a stun with the first hit in order to lock the enemy and deal the DMG that the skill really has. 

    2- LACK OF EFFECTIVE STUNS: As a pro AK player I know for a fact that AK lacks EFFECTIVE stuns as you all know as well but most deny that (most of them not even AK players).  Classes like HB Alo and Bagi all have abnormal resistance, so you cannot really stun them while they are on trans or on buff so basically AK should take the DMG and wait for the chance to land a short stun and deal some DMG. 

    First, Shield shove has a 2 sec stun which obviously not even enough to switch and carry a skill or 2 without being interrupted (and its not mostly used to stun, but interrupt enemies coming skill and give own self time to run and buff up). Secondly, there is another stun AK has which is a rare use due to the time it takes and the 60% chance it has on shocking the enemy so mostly players avoid it because it takes time and misses all the time. 

    My suggestion: A- increase Shield shove stun from 65% to 75% and from 2 secs to 4-5 sec with 9-10 secs cd  

    B- Asuwin should have a 4-5 secs stun  

    C- Add a first hit stun or shock to Infinity Evil to lock the enemy from running away 

    3- LACK OF DEBUFFS and RESISTANCE: AK 2H Meister skills has no debuffs at all or maybe has been removed except Asuwin the only skill that has a debuff. I suggest adding whatever you guys see suits for those other skills like lowering guard, resistance and defense. 

    4- THIS ONE IS A VERY IMPORTANT ONE NO EFFECTIVE SWORD AND SHIELD SKILLS to make AK stay in defensive mode plus deal some dmg. so basically, AK only uses sword and shield to either land a short stun and or buff up but no other skills that deals fast and good dmg while taking dmg and mostly useless. Useless skills like Feadon Launch only decreasing max Hb which is really useless while in the other hand should have drain or something else that is useful. As well as Blind Jab where this skill increases the defense ability temporarily which is good before switching to 2H but unfortunately it’s useless because of the really short time it has. 

     

       In the end I would like to thank you the reader and the staff and everyone else who are working to improve our entertainment experience in game, so thank you all for the hard work and time you put in. Last, I would really love to see a lot of AKs in the game and more importantly that our feedback has been taken seriously and has been implemented in the game. Thank you everyone again. 

    Edited by Mubarak2lmarri
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    @MrBigHat 1 - if you refer to ak 2h skills, yes they have little damage, but they compensate by having a lot of hits (can kill most classes as far as i've seen from full hp). Also... every class has to take chances when they want to attack, putting lachrymae on and being as risky as aks are. Also aks scale hp pretty well, so much heal is not as much required as for some other classes.

    2 - effective stuns: Shield shove was recently buffed, making it possible for either of the gms (2h or duals) to complete all of the animation and hits with the opponent being stunned. Also the 2h dash seems pretty effective in ak launching their way on the offensive interrupting the certain skill of the opponent (and sometimes bugging it)

    Not sure if you actually read the last patch xD shove.PNG.d57d64239d10b84e2277215cf65491a4.PNG

    3 - Magnum also has that debuff which doesn't let u pot which is pretty useful when going for the kill.. also 2h didn't really have many debuffs to begin with - it was pure dps pretty much; also, as a side note, all the trees are allowed in this server, making ak 3-build a thing (which most aks go for).

    Finally, ak is very well known for its ability to have more or less 20% block and 50% guard (even on 2h/dual) - this effectively means they only take 30% of the hits they should have - i say 30 because guard hits are very low given that all chars are able to get 80% guard damage absorption. Aside from that, Sacri is very effective in this server, making a selected target (itself in pvp) virtually unkillable for the time it has the buff, with pretty low cooldown.

     

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    1 hour ago, EasyPeasy said:

    @MrBigHat 1 - if you refer to ak 2h skills, yes they have little damage, but they compensate by having a lot of hits (can kill most classes as far as i've seen from full hp). Also... every class has to take chances when they want to attack, putting lachrymae on and being as risky as aks are. Also aks scale hp pretty well, so much heal is not as much required as for some other classes.

    2 - effective stuns: Shield shove was recently buffed, making it possible for either of the gms (2h or duals) to complete all of the animation and hits with the opponent being stunned. Also the 2h dash seems pretty effective in ak launching their way on the offensive interrupting the certain skill of the opponent (and sometimes bugging it)

    Not sure if you actually read the last patch xD shove.PNG.d57d64239d10b84e2277215cf65491a4.PNG

    3 - Magnum also has that debuff which doesn't let u pot which is pretty useful when going for the kill.. also 2h didn't really have many debuffs to begin with - it was pure dps pretty much; also, as a side note, all the trees are allowed in this server, making ak 3-build a thing (which most aks go for).

    Finally, ak is very well known for its ability to have more or less 20% block and 50% guard (even on 2h/dual) - this effectively means they only take 30% of the hits they should have - i say 30 because guard hits are very low given that all chars are able to get 80% guard damage absorption. Aside from that, Sacri is very effective in this server, making a selected target (itself in pvp) virtually unkillable for the time it has the buff, with pretty low cooldown.

     

    @EasyPeasy

    Thank you for taking the time to comment on my feedback. First of all, I know that you are not an AK player, yes you are an experienced player who fought all the classes but fighting against a class is completely different than when you play the class. With all respect to you, all of the information given by you about AK is not right. Starting with that AK “can kill most classes as far as I have seen from full hp” that’s not AK that’s a Bagi. I don’t really know how old was that when you saw AK can beat most of the classes with full HP or even full STR, but I am sure it’s not it's not now or even very recent. I think what you want to say is that AK losses to most of classes. Every class has to take the risk putting lach on, yes you are right but at least you need something that supports that for example, Bagi has shock wave which is a stun that goes very well with soul burn which gives the time to switch and land soul burn LACHED DMG or even switch before stunning, the list of classes goes on etc. In the other hand AK has nothing at all except the skill of the player and another 1h mace or axe on the mouse sign instead of lach (LOL), but again we are not talking about skill here. I am talking about all those people who wants to play AK and (compete) with some classes without necessarily having the skill. Skilled AK players lose to most classes what did you leave for unskilled and new players?. 

     

    2- For your information I think you should go ahead and read about the patch. Shield shove has been reverted back to normal and nerfed with a decrease of stun time from 3 secs to 2.5 sec and in addition to that has been bugged ever since. It's spouse to have 3 secs stun with 8 sec cd, but now it has 2.5 sec stun with 18 secs cd. You can check Patch 23.1 (HOTFIX Update). 

     

    3- yes magnum used to have that debuff which does not let you to pot up, but again not in rising I don’t know if you are talking about rising or a different game but in rising it used to be 3-4 secs maybe more but now not even for 1 sec has been nerfed long ago (Maybe they can increase it back to 4-5 sec). Next, if you say 2h did not really have many debuffs I will say please don’t just talk about what you don’t know. Since whenever dekaron started and 2h is the main debuffing weapon that has all the debuffs except Meister skills. 

     

    4- As I said before most of you information is not right. AK does not have 50% guard you are talking about DK and Bagi. Moreover, did you know that VS loses less defence when switching to staff more than when AK switches to 2H. Ak losses 25k+ defence when switching to 2H. However, AK should also have a more block than it has now with block bijou and block options in shield, but unfortunately this option is not here in rising for crystalline weapons, however block and guard does not work on magic classes. 

     

       In conclusion, Thank you again for taking the time and effort to comment. AK still falls behind all of other classes since there were a lot of boosting and nerfing to other classes. Also please leave my feedback to the people who is in charge of balancing I am sure they know what I am talking about. 

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    @MrBigHat

    Yes, I am not an ak player, but I have seen some ak players being able to deal with most of the classes in pvp even before the last patches (in which nothing has changed for the better for most classes and ak was buffed). After those patches were released i played very little. I know for a fact that whatever build you had when we pvp-ed destroyed my full hp (46k on trans) only using 2h skills. Disregarding these things, assuming that not all classes are that easy to be taken down, you still have duals which deal much more damage/hit, with less hits than 2h. And even though you have another wep on the mouse select, when you want to push for 2h combo, you can let that wep down and select lach - this is about the skill of the player. Classes are not balance based on poorly skilled players, but on what the class is effectively able to do - not in theory like some people sometimes suggest, but based on reality/practical situations (unlike last balances had been done due to the lack of people in balance team).

    2 and 3 - I just made an ak to test everything you just said and it's mostly false. Shield Shove is as it's said in the balance patch - 18 sec cd and it has 2.8 sec stun (i used stopwatch for everything - go ahead and test yourself if you don't believe me).

    NOW TO THE 2H:

    Magnum - 2.5 sec unable to use pots (not 1 sec) on level 6 (i didn't want to make it through lv 190 to prove a point)

    Heavy blow - 2.5 sec stun

    Genocide - def debuff

    Armor breaker - def debuff

    Fury Blow - skill interrupt for the enemy and debuffs (2x)

    Solar Evil - def debuff

    Wrist chop - atk debuff

    In addition to these, there are some other skills that i didn't mention because they have different debuffs for different weapons and I was just a bit too lazy to write everything down for you. You should know them, not me.

    4 - yes, i was wrong about the amount of guard it can have in pvp, it's 40%+, but point remains the same - Overall, 40% of the damage ak takes is normal damage (whites/crits), 40+% is guarded and 20% of the hits are blocked which means that you get extra 20% chance to block stuns, thus making it a huge deal for a class tankiness - and yes, ak is tanky and yes, as previously stated, with the buffed shield shove you are able to switch to anything you want, dealing damage.

    In conclusion, to summarize everything, you are not a pro ak, you don't even know what your skills do - you said 2h lacks debuffs and damage, yet both of these things are false. 2h HAS debuffs, it's you that don't use them and 2h has damage, you just don't use lachrymae. :) Go ahead and learn to switch and use stopwatch on every debuff and find out the time before you write a post about balance so that you know what you talk about.

    Edited by EasyPeasy
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    1 hour ago, EasyPeasy said:

    @MrBigHat

    Yes, I am not an ak player, but I have seen some ak players being able to deal with most of the classes in pvp even before the last patches (in which nothing has changed for the better for most classes and ak was buffed). After those patches were released i played very little. I know for a fact that whatever build you had when we pvp-ed destroyed my full hp (46k on trans) only using 2h skills. Disregarding these things, assuming that not all classes are that easy to be taken down, you still have duals which deal much more damage/hit, with less hits than 2h. And even though you have another wep on the mouse select, when you want to push for 2h combo, you can let that wep down and select lach - this is about the skill of the player. Classes are not balance based on poorly skilled players, but on what the class is effectively able to do - not in theory like some people sometimes suggest, but based on reality/practical situations (unlike last balances had been done due to the lack of people in balance team).

    2 and 3 - I just made an ak to test everything you just said and it's mostly false. Shield Shove is as it's said in the balance patch - 18 sec cd and it has 2.8 sec stun (i used stopwatch for everything - go ahead and test yourself if you don't believe me).

    NOW TO THE 2H:

    Magnum - 2.5 sec unable to use pots (not 1 sec) on level 6 (i didn't want to make it through lv 190 to prove a point)

    Heavy blow - 2.5 sec stun

    Genocide - def debuff

    Armor breaker - def debuff

    Fury Blow - skill interrupt for the enemy and debuffs (2x)

    Solar Evil - def debuff

    Wrist chop - atk debuff

    In addition to these, there are some other skills that i didn't mention because they have different debuffs for different weapons and I was just a bit too lazy to write everything down for you. You should know them, not me.

    4 - yes, i was wrong about the amount of guard it can have in pvp, it's 40%+, but point remains the same - Overall, 40% of the damage ak takes is normal damage (whites/crits), 40+% is guarded and 20% of the hits are blocked which means that you get extra 20% chance to block stuns, thus making it a huge deal for a class tankiness - and yes, ak is tanky and yes, as previously stated, with the buffed shield shove you are able to switch to anything you want, dealing damage.

    In conclusion, to summarize everything, you are not a pro ak, you don't even know what your skills do - you said 2h lacks debuffs and damage, yet both of these things are false. 2h HAS debuffs, it's you that don't use them and 2h has damage, you just don't use lachrymae. :) Go ahead and learn to switch and use stopwatch on every debuff and find out the time before you write a post about balance so that you know what you talk about.

    @EasyPeasy 

    Again, with the guy who wants all classes to be nerfed except his. After reading what you said it clearly shows that you are taking stuff very personal and now trying to prove something that I already talked about. First of all, this will be the last time I reply to you and give you more information about that class that you don’t play and assuming that you know which is (AK). To make the long story short, 1v1 pvp events has shown and proven that AK never went passed first round or second round without losing, moreover tell me when was the last time you saw AK in Semi-final or even final match in 1v1 pvp events? 

    Next, you said “Disregarding these things, assuming that not all classes are that easy to be taken down, you still have duals which deal much more damage/hit, with less hits than 2h. And even though you have another wep on the mouse select, when you want to push for 2h combo, you can let that wep down and select lach - this is about the skill of the player.” I don’t really know what exactly you are saying here is this a guid on how to play AK or feedback how to improve and balance stuff, if it's about how to play AK I am sure I can teach how to do that and if you are talking about the skill of the player, you know that I am skilled enough to beat you, but again as I said so many times, we are not talking about the skill of the player here we talk about AK as a character. 

     

    In regards to what you said “2 and 3 - I just made an ak to test everything you just said and it's mostly false. Shield Shove is as it's said in the balance patch - 18 sec cd and it has 2.8 sec stun (i used stopwatch for everything - go ahead and test yourself if you don't believe me).” as I said before that shield shove should have been reverted back to normal with 70% stun chance for 2.5 secs with 8 secs cd, but that 18 secs you see now is a bug (go ask the staff about it). Again, leave your stubbornness aside and go ahead and check Patch 23.1 (HOTFIX Update).   

     

    Back to the 2H weapon, were not you the one who said “also 2h didn't really have many debuffs to begin with - it was pure dps pretty much” and I was the one to told you that 2H is the main debuffing weapon for AK, but I was talking about that Meister skills don’t not really have debuffs except for Asuwin.  However, good job doing your homework and proving that what I said is right when you mentioned heavy blow, genocide, armor breaker, fury blow, solar evil and wrist chop. I know about those skills but do you wanna use all those skills and leave your Meister skills? Well the right question is do you really have time to do so? Well, the answer is hell no most of them take a very long time to cast, and being an AK, you don’t really have the time to stay on 2h for too long nor duals. 

     

    In conclusion, it’s clear to all of us that you are commenting from an anger not from a development viewpoint. I would suggest that you just focus on your class and give good feedback to people in charge of balance and they will decide what they see fit, no need to argue about all other classes that you don’t really play. In the end, it’s just a game where we all have fun and enjoy it’s good to have sportsmanship other than hate and anger. 

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    Saying that I want all classes to be nerfed is a big misunderstanding from you. I want classes to be as they were designed to, which at the moment is not the case for some. AK hasn't won 1v1 tourneys not because it is weak, but because the players that are currently playing AK are not using the class to its full potential. When Zeshin was playing you had an AK role model... now that he is gone, yes, there aren't many skilled players on the class that also join 1v1 tourneys - it's not the class's fault - he managed to get to the top using AK in weekly tourney. Now that he is gone, you think you are the best player around, which is false.

    The skill works as balanced, the bug is the fact that the cooldown shows 8 seconds, while the real cooldown is longer xD

    About the 2h, I was referring mostly to the meisters because those were in question of buffing - I probably should've been clearer. You have time to play some of the debuffs I listed - more than that, you have time to use the 2h stun that I never saw you using.

    I am not commenting out of any sort of anger, I just believe that AK is a good class which, for now, doesn't need improvements, it only needs good players on it (or players with low ms due to the switches). I argue on this topic because I am entitled to share my opinion regarding your suggestions for balance so that the balance is done from more points of view - this is the goal after all. Moreover, I defended everything I had to say with arguments and tests, knocked down some of your arguments because they were false and I will do this because this is the way an argument has to be, with accurate information, not information like *the debuff lasts for 1 sec or less* when in fact it lasts for 2.5 seconds at least.

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    2 hours ago, EasyPeasy said:

     

    Saying that I want all classes to be nerfed is a big misunderstanding from you. I want classes to be as they were designed to, which at the moment is not the case for some. AK hasn't won 1v1 tourneys not because it is weak, but because the players that are currently playing AK are not using the class to its full potential. When Zeshin was playing you had an AK role model... now that he is gone, yes, there aren't many skilled players on the class that also join 1v1 tourneys - it's not the class's fault - he managed to get to the top using AK in weekly tourney. Now that he is gone, you think you are the best player around, which is false.

    The skill works as balanced, the bug is the fact that the cooldown shows 8 seconds, while the real cooldown is longer xD

    About the 2h, I was referring mostly to the meisters because those were in question of buffing - I probably should've been clearer. You have time to play some of the debuffs I listed - more than that, you have time to use the 2h stun that I never saw you using.

    I am not commenting out of any sort of anger, I just believe that AK is a good class which, for now, doesn't need improvements, it only needs good players on it (or players with low ms due to the switches). I argue on this topic because I am entitled to share my opinion regarding your suggestions for balance so that the balance is done from more points of view - this is the goal after all. Moreover, I defended everything I had to say with arguments and tests, knocked down some of your arguments because they were false and I will do this because this is the way an argument has to be, with accurate information, not information like *the debuff lasts for 1 sec or less* when in fact it lasts for 2.5 seconds at least.

    @EasyPeasy 

    Just to make something clear, now when you have nothing to say you go back to Zeshin, by the time I played zeshin was already quitting, in addition to that you know for a fact that back at Zeshins time which was long ago AK was completely different than now, I am totally positive even if Zeshin comes back to the game he won't be able to do what he used to do back then because of the big gap between AK and other classes. In regards to “Now that he is gone, you think you are the best player around, which is false.” when did I say I am best player around? You keep pointing your fingers at me lol. 

     

    When you said “You have time to play some of the debuffs I listed - more than that, you have time to use the 2h stun that I never saw you using.” you don’t seem to pay attention or read what I really say. Go back to my first post and you will see that I talked about (Heavy blow) and said that there is another stun AK has which is a rare use due to the time it takes and the 60% chance it has on shocking the enemy so mostly players avoid it because it takes time and misses all the time.   

     

    Lastly, everyone is entitled to share opinions regarding suggestions for balance, at least have honesty of the current situation of the character before that have a real experience in the class itself, but you focused more on me as a player than the class itself. Moving on to magnum skill, does it really make any difference if the debuff last for 1 sec or 2.5 secs if potting up itself takes 4-6 secs? Defiantly it does not matter(useless). The purpose of this feedback is not to prove that I am right or wrong that’s my personal feedback and what I think that AK lacks from an experience and would love to see a lot of AK players play the game and the choice is staffs, either take it or leave it. However, most of your information were false as the reader can see in the previous posts. Finally, thank you for being very interested in this topic I think staff should consider making you a member of the balance team :)

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    @MrBigHat

    Firstly, zeshin left shortly after the 30th of March balance update - he was one of the 2 staffs responsible for that balance, while saying plainly and clearly that ak needed no boosts - it was fine. Since then, as far as i saw, classes mostly got nerfed. The only reason i called him out because he had time for debuffs, stuns and skill interrupts. If he managed to have time to do them, you should be able to as well. Moreover, as a high ranked (legend or something along those lines) ak, he managed to beat everyone with almost 100% success rate. So yes, I didn't play ak, but I listened carefully of what he told me about some skills he used that most aks don't ever use and what new skills he learnt how to use and so on.

    I am not focused on you specifically, neither as a player nor as a person. I am simply pointing out some items which I consider important and that I noticed. It was not until after the first post of today that I actually noticed it was you :))). My position hasn't changed a bit, but finding that out helped me a little in writing some arguments here because i noticed you don't play most of the skills that could make a change.

    I would like to join some sort of balance team if there would be one and while I am not entitled to make changes for ak or other classes that I don't play, I was and still am willing to listen to what actual "pro" players had and have to say about their classes. What you consider useless and skills that don't make any difference, some use them to their advantage and I think this is the point of view balance should go in.

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    I'm kinda new into Rising but I mained AK for about 11 years, idk how is the balance here cause I'm not geared yet but I see people ain't happy with the AK.
    I think the AK is the most broken class in base Dekaron, period, but it has a high skill ceiling. If you are able to use 2H+Duals+Shield effectively by swapping weapons with your mouse you can destroy about any other class, 2H allows him to reliably stun AND get close to enemies from literally 2 screens away, reduce defenses and slow, 2H has insane DPS while shield makes AK immortal vs physical classes like Hunters. I think AK should be balanced around that, and I don't see a problem with AK having to be built full Str to have tons of damage, it is the class with the highest defensive stats after all.

    In case Str builds are considered a problem, can't we just make its skills have a consistent base damage and reduce the Attack Damage scaling from Str points for the class? that would force players to build it more tanky. I don't like that idea tho.

    Anyway, what I wanted to discuss is that there is an issue with the Black Wizard. I don't know if it was balanced to be like that or just a bug, but Devil's Promise isn't working, it won't reset the CD of the last skill and that takes away some combos from it.

    And last, I have been reading previous patch notes to understand what direction this game is going and it doesn't look good. There have been too many nerfs to classes that are doing well. I think that instead of nerfing good classes we need to buff the classes that are not doing well. Whenever you nerf a class you just make the players of that class salty and for a good reason, if you remove something from their kit like a reliable stun, a source of damage, a consistent buff or a survival tool (like Summoner's Curse Removal having a 30 secs cooldown now), players of that class will immediately notice the change, feeling that the character you play feels awful and now you just want to rerole to another class. I believe that the only valid reason to nerf the damage of a class in Dekaron is if that class is killing with one combo or just making the game unplayable for others (like the Half Bagi AOE stun that bugged everyone's skills back in 2011-2012 in DK Global), not just because it is doing better than others, and those "Slightly decreased damage" notations in the patch notes certainly tells me that classes are being nerfed just because they're doing good.

    Edited by NabeShop
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